Bull Rush

Cross Posted at joebucsfan

The defensive line as a whole performed better against the Chiefs than they had against the Dolphins but there is still a lot of room for improvement in a lot of areas.

One of those areas is ripping off of blockers. Too many times I am still seeing guys trying to make arm tackles with a blocker still on them. This leads to a lot of missed tackles and in some cases some dislocated shoulders. By ripping off of a block a guy gives himself a much better opportunity to make plays and reduces the chances of getting hurt. But in the heat of the moment when you see a guy running through your gap I know guys get excited and forget their technique at times. That's why you have to drill it over and over during the week so that it becomes second nature. Its not just one or two guys either so that's something everybody can work on.

Another area is a pet peeve of mine that it would seem has continued from last year to this year. When we blitz people inside its common sense that the quarterback will try to escape that rush generally by either continuing to backpeddle or by trying to escape outside of the pocket. It is for that reason that the contain rushers on those kinds of blitzes should be hauling ass upfield with their best speed rushes rather than trying to use power rushes of any kind. As a matter of fact, if they can avoid the blockers altogether by running around them, that's what you would usually prefer. But some of the defensive ends tend to get into the blockers too much which not only keeps them from getting to the quarterback when they are drifting back (and when it should be a free shot) but also has the potential of allowing the quarterback to break containment if they take a deep drop and immediately take off running outside to avoid the inside blitzers.

The moral to the story is if you have a lot of people rushing inside of you get your ass upfield.

On the other hand it was encouraging to see quite a few guys really getting after it rushing the passer. We also managed to run the same line stunt from last year a few times and actually get it right. Defensively we showed a little more 3-4 this game to some mixed results especially up front. I'm not totally sure but it seemed at times as if some guys weren't sure which gap they had on run fits. But we did have several defensive ends standing up making plays against the run by folding back inside and even getting good pass drops on occasion.

One last gripe. Too many guys spent too much time on the ground this game. Yes, everybody get's cut and its hard to stay up at times. But you won't make any plays if you keep falling on the ground and it wasn't always due to cut blocks. Guys have to take pride in not allowing offensive linemen to take them to the ground unless they take two guys with them on a double team. Other wise by hook or by crook as defensive linemen they have to work harder to stay upright, especially when the ball ends up coming back into their gaps.

Now for the personal breakdowns.

Kyle Moore: I thought Moore did some good things against the Chiefs. He showed good hustle on the play when he caused Thomas Jones to fumble early on in the game. He also had the best pass rush Ive seen from him so far out of the times when he is lined up inside as tackle. And he showed a lot of hustle every play he was in there.

One area that he needs to improve on however is taking on tight ends in the run game. Moore tends to come off a little soft and catch the blocks which leads to him getting knocked off the ball a bit. Because he's athletic he usually ends up in his gap where he is supposed to be theoretically but because he has given ground it gives the running back an opportunity to get yardage even when everyone else has done their job. Now no defensive end dominates every match up with a tight end but you can't consistently lose ground when they are blocking our defensive ends one on one and expect the defense to work.

Also Moore needs to develop more outside moves at left end. His power rushes and inside rushes are good but at some point when teams notice that he never tries to turn the corner, offensive tackles are going to start sitting on his power and inside rushes and make him try to take the corner. If he can't do it he's going to be in trouble because very few defensive ends in the history of the game have been able to rely almost solely on power rushes and been any good.

Gerald McCoy: McCoy showed a lot of improvement from the last game to this one in my opinion. He played that slip block a lot better. He was also a lot more active in his pass rush. By my count he had at least three legitimate pressures and he almost got his first sack on a play where he got upfield and then came back underneath after he saw the quarterback trying to take off running up the middle. His hands were also a lot better as he kept them closer together which protected his chest from the offensive linemen's punches.

I would say this was a really good building block game for McCoy. He showed a little bit of everything with his pass rush. He had a really good speed rush on a guard to force the quarterback to throw it too early. He showed some good power as well. He even showed a little spin move (which needs some work lol). I think more than anything else though his level of activity was the thing that was most encouraging to me. He didn't accept being blocked at any time and he kept working to beat blocks until the ball was thrown or the whistle blew.

Roy Miller: Roy was a bit up and down this game. He did some really good things like splitting a double team and getting pressure on the quarterback. As well as another time when he got really good penetration and made the tackle. But he was also reached by the center on a play where the running back ended up going through his A gap. He was also on the ground a little more than I'm used to seeing him including one time where nobody actually blocked him but because he was expecting contact he fell down. And of course the ball found his gap that time too. Another time the center scoop blocked him and went up to the linebacker while the guard cut blocked him from behind. I thought for a second that had played the cut block well enough to stay on his feet but all of a sudden the sniper got him.

The one thing that always stands out about Roy is his effort though and Saturday was no different. As long as he cleans up his technique on that reach block and remembers to keep his feet up under him, he will be just fine.


Stylez G. White: I like White as a player and I'm expecting big things from him this season. Having said that now I'll say this, he needs to play better.

Don't misunderstand me, he hasn't played bad. In two games I don't think I have seen him doing something technically "wrong". However we need for Stylez to be a playmaker. We need for him to be the bell cow who leads us to where we want to go. We need him to get after the quarterback from the first whistle to the last. And we need him to make splash plays.

So far that hasn't happened.

Now in the first game the field was definitely a factor and its not like he played a ton of snaps. But yesterday he had opportunities and he didn't really make any big plays. One reason is that he hasn't really made an inside pass rush yet. He kept trying to work the edge against the Chiefs and theres nothing wrong with that. He is after all a pretty good edge rusher. But when the offensive tackles are setting for an outside rush and all but putting a sign up inviting you to burn them inside and you don't at least try once or twice, something is wrong.

Im not saying he has to start spinning every other play like Dwight Freeny, but he has to keep the tackles honest. If not they are just going to keep pushing him by the corner and getting pluses from THEIR coaches.

Stylez did have pretty good pass coverage on a running back and he ended up making the tackle. He also ran to the ball well and showed a lot of hustle. But I expect more and I'm sure his teammates and coaches expect more.

Do I have higher expectations of Stylez? Absolutely. Is that fair? Probably not. But when it comes down to it football isn't fair and he wants to go where he has never gone he is going to have to do some things he has never done.

I look at the Chiefs and I see Tamba Hali giving Donald Penn that work. Hali is trying to go get it this year and it shows. At some point we are going to have to see the same thing from Stylez, and soon.

Michael Bennett: Once again this second year guy stole the show. By my count he had 4 tackles including a sack and a caused fumble. He had one play when he was really physical with the tight end and destroyed him on a base block that was just impressive as hell to me. He also looks a lot more comfortable rushing inside than I thought he would at his size.

Bennett stands out from the other left ends in one important respect. He appears to be able to speed rush from the left side which none of the rest of them seem to do well on a consistent basis. Its not that he's just running around guys either. He really uses his hands well and he has a sneaky long arm move that freezes offensive lineman while he beats them to the quarterback. He even looked good doing his pass drops on some zone blitzes.

All wasn't perfect however as he peeked inside on a running play and got reached, and of course the ball ran right in his gap. He and everyone else has to learn that you simply can not do that in our defense. When you do it screws up everyone else and opens the defense to get hit for a big play. Every play is not your play and sometimes you have to trust that your teammate will do their job while you continue doing yours.

Still the guy has had a pretty impressive two games. I know its just the preseason but I don't think my eyes are lying to me.

One last thing. If its true that the best guys will play then the two starting defensive ends in front of Bennett should feel mighty uncomfortable right now.

Just sayin...

Brian Price: Price finally got some action after being held out with a recurring hamstring injury. It was obvious that he has missed a lot of time though because he never seemed to really get his legs under him. He was on the ground WAYYY too much and generally it was on blocking schemes and against blockers I believe he would normally handle well. But you can't miss as much time as he did and expect to come out killing people. Its going to take him some time to get back right and get used to taking on blockers again but once he does I expect much better play from him.

Ryan Sims: I keep saying the same things but they never seem to change with Sims. The guy is a load and hard to move. When he comes off the ball he generally gets good push up the field. But for whatever reason he seems to refuse to rip off of blocks when he is trying to make a play. Whether it be on a pass rush or versus a run block he always does a gets up field and then just reaches his arm out to try to make a play. And generally it doesn't work out well for him.

He did get two tackles against the Chiefs and he looked good on a couple of line movements, but he would make so many more plays if he just worked on escaping blockers. Or maybe he does work on it but he just forgets to do so when the bullets are flying. Either way he is a guy who could be a pretty good player and definitely could contribute to this team if he just starts doing that one simple task of ripping off of blocks. Of course I've been saying that since last year so I won't hold my breath.

Tim Crowder: This was not one of Crowder's better games. One thing I noticed is that he is starting to stand up when he comes out of his stance which slows down his speed rush. A lot of times guys will do this when they are guessing the blocking schemes or if they just haven't worked on keeping their pads low. What ever the reason may be I hope he works on it because otherwise he is going to continue to look slow coming out of his stance even when he gets a good get off.

Crowder also got put on skates one time by the tight end and tackle and it wasn't pretty. He also got swatted up field a lot farther than he should have on a draw play. One thing you can normally count on with Crowder is really good technique but I didn't see it against the Chiefs. Or rather I didn't see what I am used to seeing from him. He did have a nice speed rush on a third down and he had one tackle by my count. He is another guy who didn't play bad but whom I felt like could have and should have played better.


James Ruffin: I'm smiling while I type this because Ruffin went straight old school on us. You will rarely see a defensive lineman trying to grab an offensive lineman's jersey at the shoulder, pull, and rip or arm over anymore. One of the principle reasons is that most offensive linemen these days have their jersey tailored to where its almost impossible to grab there. Another reason is that when you try to make that move you basically give the offensive lineman a free shot to punch you in the chest.

Well evidently Ruffin didn't get the memo because he used the grab, snatch, and pull technique to great effect against the Chiefs' right tackles. He had at least two pressures, one of which lead to an interception and he was generally unblockable from left end.

No, seriously. Go back and watch it. It was as dominant a pass rushing peformance as I've seen in a long time, even in preseason.

Now obviously I doubt whomever the guy blocking him was will make the Chiefs roster (at least their quarterbacks better hope not) but you can't let that take away from Ruffin's play. He still went out there and beat the guy like a drum over and over and over again.

I gotta tell you, if he is doing well on special teams also Ruffin HAS to be a strong candidate for at least the practice squad. If he keeps that up though there's a chance that somebody else might scoop him up for their active roster. I don't think we have enough room to carry im on our 53 but he is still making the most of his opportunities.

Carlton Powell: Did the Bucs sign a new guy??? I swear man the Powell against the Chiefs looked NOTHING like the guy who got pwned last week against the Dolphins. I don't know who lit a fire under him but the difference was like night and day. He was flying around to the ball. He got a couple of tackles and an assist. He looped around on a pirate for contain like he was supposed to. And it appeared that he ran a TOM game with Dre Moore and ended up getting a pressure on the quarterback.

He wasn't perfect of course (he was still on the ground a few times) but he at least looked like he belonged on the field. He still has a long way to go and its an uphill battle for him but I have to tip my cap to the guy. He went out there and decided that he was not going to look bad on film again. And he didn't.

Dre Moore: After last week I thought Dre Moore had turned a corner and was ready to contend for a roster spot. Then yesterday against the Chiefs he seemed to regress in my opinion.

At first he played ok. Nothing earth shattering but he seemed to be where he was supposed to be. But as he got more and more reps he seemed to shut it down a bit. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he was tired at the end of the game because the Chiefs quarterback was running around a lot and they were throwing a lot of passes. But nobody seemed to be brother in lawing it as much as Moore. I kept waiting to see a get off, a pass rush move, some hustle to the ball. But instead he kept getting worse.

Now look, I know how it is when the monkey jumps on your back. Hell I've been there. But you can't allow fatigue to get to you to the point where it doesn't look like you are even trying anymore. And that, to me, is what Moore looked like at the end of the game.

The plain and simple truth is that that amount of opportunities for a third string guy to impress are extremely limited this time of year and its only going to get worse. Dre Moore had better wake up to that reality in a hurry or he is going to find himself on the outside looking in.

Erik Lorig: Lorig continues to impress me with his effort and ability. He doesn't necessarily look the part but the guy is pretty athletic. Athletic enough that when he was in and the defense ran a 3-4 he was one of the stand up guys. He even made at least one tackle from that position folding inside after taking a pass drop on a draw play.

One of the plays that impressed me most was when he got knocked to the ground on a cut block but got up immediately and got in on the tackle on the running back.

He played more on the right side this week instead of the left and while he played ok from there his pass rushing needs a lot of work from that side. He pass rushed one time from the stand up 3-4 position and ended up going inside and losing contain on the quarterback who ended up taking it outside for a nice gain.

I don't know how many defensive lineman we are keeping this year but it would seem like Lorig is going to have a hard time making the active roster. Still he should be a prime candidate for the practice squad where he can develop a little while longer.

That's all for now. Hope everyone enjoys the breakdown. See you in the comments section.

On Barrett Ruud

Over the past season there has been a fair share of Barrett Ruud bashing. I will be honest and say that Ruud isn't exactly what I consider a prototypical middle linebacker but I think most of the main criticisms of him are bogus and borne of a fundamental lack of understanding about the role he plays in our defense. For that reason I wanted to debunk one of the most wide spread talking points against him, the one about him not making plays at or behind the line of scrimmage.

First off every Bucs fan should try to burn all the images of Barrett Ruud from the first 10 games out of your memory. The scheme simply sucked and it put him at a disadvantage in that he was called upon to take on centers and guards as if he was in a 3-4 defense and that is not really his strong point. And because it isn't likely that we are going to go back to that scheme or a 3-4 defense at least in the next season, that's not really a fair way to judge the value he brings to the team.

Now here in Tampa we have been blessed and somewhat spoiled to have some really good middle linebackers over the past 15 years or so. Hardy Nickerson or "Hardware" as we called him was a very physical and very intimidating presence in the middle our defense and he was also athletic enough to cover the deep middle in our Tampa 2 coverage. After Hardy we had Shelton Quarles who was a little more athletic if a little less intimidating in leading our defense in the middle. Now we have Ruud who just plays the game some what differently from both of those guys but is none the less still effective. He matches up well with tight ends, he is able to cover that deep middle, and he doesn't miss very many tackles. Still some folks around Tampa would have you to believe that Ruud isn't a playmaker or I guess they want to infer that he is afraid to come down hill and hit somebody. Well I for one watch all the games and I have seen nothing of the sort. And since players can't very well combat these criticisms themselves, I feel its important that people know the truth.

Lets talk about the role of the middle linebacker in a Tampa 2 defense. First and foremost, yes they have to play the run and fill their gap, but they also have to cover the deep middle/seam routes on the pass. It sounds like an easy concept, but in practice its pretty damn hard. Especially when you factor in having to react to a play action pass. In Tampa 2 our Safeties split the deep section of the passing zone into two halves. The most vulnerable part of this section is always the middle because in Tampa 2 the safeties split and pay more of their attention to what the wideouts are doing, making sure to cover the corners' backs on any deep balls. Nowadays their job is even harder because of the 5 yard chuck rule because the corners generally aren't able to get the good reroute like they use to and force the wide receivers further inside where its easier for the safeties to help cover them. That means more wide receivers are able to get off the line with an outside move and get up the sideline on go routes. In turn the safeties have to be ready to get over the top of any sideline deep route thus leaving a relatively big piece of real estate open right down the middle of the field.

If your middle linebacker gets sucked into the line on playaction pass in this situation, then a tight end or slot receiver will basically have free reign to burn you for 20 or more yards a pop right down the seam. THAT is why there are times when you see Barrett Ruud hesitate before he comes down hill. He is trying to discern whether its really a run or if he needs to get back in pass coverage. And if you noticed the seam route wasn't really a pass that hurt us a lot this year.



I know some folks pine for the days when we had Shelton Quarles manning the middle, and one thing is for sure and that is I am a HUGE fan of Quarles from all the way back when we played together. But some of those same people probably don't realize that Quarles only had 5 tackles for a loss his final year as a starter. And when I say only, that's not a knock against Quarles, its more an illustration about the position both he and Ruud play. Tackles for loss aren't really put at a premium for a middle linebacker in our version of a Tampa 2. That is more the job of the Will linebacker which is why you saw Derrick Brooks make so many plays behind the line in his career and why Geno Hayes had more than his fair share last year in his first full season as a starter.

Now I would say that all things being equal Quarles was probably a better overall athlete than Ruud but one thing is almost undeniable and that is that Ruud is exceptional in coverage. Just compare his 16 passes defensed and his 5 interceptions in his past 3 years as a starter with Quarles' 8 passes defensed and 0 interceptions in his last 3 years as a starter. Again, that's not to say that Ruud is better than Quarles, its just to say that the guy has put in work. And some folks should at least acknowledge that.

As far as I can tell this talking point is a reaction to people who point out Ruuds impressive tackle totals as a starter. For instance one year Ruud reportedly had over 200 tackles from the middle linebacker position. So instead of giving him credit for being a productive player in that regard, some folks have decided they can just dismiss all those tackles by saying they happened too far down the field. Of course there are no statisticians that track that kind of thing so its a hard talking point to refute. But all I need are my two eyes so allow me to call bullshit on that.

To be honest with you when it comes to being physical, I have seen Ruud really rock some fullbacks on iso plays. An iso is what some people refer to as a fullback lead where the fullback goes through the hole first to try to create space and the tailback follows behind him and tries to cut off his block to get yardage inside. We used to call it an attitude play because you can watch the fullback and the linebacker he is taking on to see which one of them is going to be the hammer and which is going to be the nail. As a matter of fact if a team runs enough of those plays you might well either see the fullback slow down a bit, or tipping as we call it, because they are tired of being pounded into oblivion, or you might see the linebacker all of a sudden try to go around the block instead of through it because their shoulders are probably on fire. Ruud takes on that block the same way from the first play of the game through the last. I won't say he wins every single collision but he for damn sure wins his fair share.

So as you can tell now this talking point about tackles for losses is a helluva lot more complex than many area sports pundits would have you believe. But there is at least one legitimate criticism of Ruud that I have and I don't mind sharing it with you.

I am a guy who believes you have to play defense with a lot of emotion, that emotion usually being pissed off. When I watch a middle linebacker I don't want to see him just make a tackle, I want to see him try to tear a guy's head off. Whether its behind the line or a tackle after a five yard gain I want to see that middle linebacker get a guy down on the ground as if he just said something foul about his mama. Now that just isn't the kind of linebacker Ruud is, and likely isn't the kind he ever will be. I think week after week Offensive Coordinators fear him a lot more than the running backs on the other teams do. That's because the offensive coordinators know that he will make the tackle if he gets the chance while the running backs know he won't necessarily try to take them out on that tackle. The yardage will still be the same but at times you want to see a running back get up and go back to the huddle in such a way that you can tell that tackle is going to stay on their mind all game. And in truth, as much as I get on Jeremy Trueblood for getting dumb penalties, I for one wouldn't mind Ruud getting a personal foul or two a season, just to send a message.

But here is where I tend differ from other people who it seems spend every other day bashing Barrett Ruud. While I see the area in his game where I feel like he could improve, I ALSO see the areas in his game where he happens to play at a high level. I won't say that Ruud is a Pro Bowler right now or that he is every going to best to ever play the game at that position, but what I WILL say is that for what we ask him to do he is definitely doing a better than average job. And remember, I'm just talking about what he is doing in a physical sense on the field, I didn't even touch on how well he does getting us lined up play after play or his apparently high football IQ

There is an old saying that you never appreciate what you have until its gone. Well if Ruud ends up leaving I have a feeling more than a few Bucs fans will come to understand what that saying means. There might be a few middle linebackers that could play the position better than Ruud here, but certainly no more than a handful. And if you think the teams that those few guys play are are just going to let them walk away you're crazy. And if you think the Glazers are going to break the bank for them then you haven't been paying attention. Bucs fans who are clamoring for a new middle linebacker would do well to remember another old saying.

"Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it."

What Chris Hovan Said

"The old defense is out-dated and didn't work,'' Hovan said. "This defense is what it is, it's true. It's physical. It's violent, it's fast. It's Tampa 2. It's what this city has been raised on.

"You could just tell the swagger is coming back to this defense, the way we approach the game, the way we study, the way we take the field. There's a different swagger and it comes into play...We're not running the old defense against these guys, we're running the Tampa 2. We're about to find out how good we are. When we played them in the past and played this defense against them, we've been successful. Not to say that we're going to be successful, but we have a lot of confidence when we run this defense.''

Those are the words of Bucs starting defensive tackle Chris Hovan. And judging by the paraphrasing in the title "Hovan: The old (Jim Bates) defense is "outdated and didn't work.'" I am pretty sure that it will be played up as a shot at defrocked defensive coordinator Jim Bates. And who knows, maybe it was. But I am here to tell you that there is plenty of truth in what he said.

At the beginning of this season I started off with several complaints about this defense in general and in the defensive line set up in particular. Everyone on our defensive line started the year with their outside hand down. This was, in my opinion, crazy. Slowly but surely this changed as the season wore on. Another complaint that I had was that we never lined up our weak tackle over the center which made it easier to run in the A gaps. This never changed until Coach Morris took over calling the defense. I also complained that we never ran any under defense which would take advantage of Quincy Black's skills more. Again, this never changed until Coach Morris took over pay calling duties. And last but not least we were running so much bump man coverage in early downs that we were routinely getting bombed on almost every single game. And yet again, this did not change until Coach Morris took over.

Nothing Hovan said was factually wrong, and if you recall I was one of the few who was excited right off the bat when they announced before the Atlanta game that we were going back to our "Tampa 2" scheme (which incidentally is a lot more than just playing Tampa 2 every play). What I hope is that nobody takes what he says and tries to twist it and use it against him. I have seen and heard a bunch of clowns taking shots at Hovan over, of all the silly shit in the world, him painting his face with eyeblack recently. Something he has been doing practically his whole career. I mean here is a guy who has performed well since he has been here, has been a model citizen, never said or done anything remotely controversial since his arrival, and people are taking shots at him now over bullshit. And that is why it concerns me that this will get blown out of proportion in one way or another. All Hovan did was speak the truth and something that most Bucs fans themselves probably said a time or two this season. Maybe he shouldn't have come out and said it right now considering their record and how the season has gone, but I personally don't find anything wrong with it. Aren't fans always saying they want people to tell them the truth anyway?

It is what it is.

New Post Up At JoeBucsFan

My new post is up over at joebucsfan.com. Please go over and let me know what you think.

The Axe Has Fallen

Tampa Bay Buccanneers Defensive Coordinator Jim Bates has been relieved of his coaching duties.

From Tampabay.com

TAMPA -- Saddled with the worst run defense in the NFL and a 1-9 record, coach Raheem Morris decided Monday night to relieve Jim Bates as defensive coordinator and take over the defensive play-calling duties.

Bates, 63, will remain with the team at least through the end of the season in a consulting role, breaking down film and helping Morris on game day from the coaching box.

Morris is expected to immediately return the Bucs' to their Tampa Two scheme, which will allow their undersized defensive linemen to take advantage of their quickness rather than penalize them for a lack of size.

Morris and general manager Mark Dominik met until late Monday to discuss the organizational shift, one day after the Bucs were routed by the unbeaten New Orleans Saints 38-7, one of the worst home defeats in club history.

Under Bates, Tampa Bay's defense is ranked 26th overall in the NFL and last against the run, allowing 168.9 yards per game. Only the Detroit Lions have given up more points than the 29.4 per game allowed by the Bucs this season.

Believe it or not I am torn about this. You see while I disagreed with a lot Bates had done during this season, I also realize just how big of a deal it is for a coach to get fired. Coaching in the NFL or on the college level is a very nomadic lifestyle. People get hired and fired so much these days after awhile some coaches don't even have their family's fully unpack until a few years into their contract. Bates won't be leaving immediately but obviously he won't be here after the season is over with and that means unless he retires which is doubtful that he and his family will have to move yet again. Its another reason why coaching is so hard on marriages and parenting.

On the other side of the coin our defense just wasn't getting it done and as I have said many times on this blog, it was the scheme that was killing us. Now I wouldn't expect us to come out and play like the 1994 Dallas Cowboys but I would almost guarantee that the defense will perform markedly better this Sunday when they go back to playing the kind of run defense we have played around here for more than a decade prior to this year. I am not sure if Raheem is going to have a declared undertackle but just without thinking it through I personally would love to see him have Hovan go to the strong side every play so he is always in a position to pass rush and have Sims with his big body always on the center and then have Miller spell both of them at times.

Now Stroud in his article takes a few shots at the defense by saying they don't have many play makers. I respectfully disagree. I would look for Hovan, White, Talib, Black, Jackson, and Ruud to look a lot better this Sunday and make the kind of plays fans have been hoping for all year.

Oh and for all of the haters who thought I was talking out of my ass or that I was "trying to get paid" as one message boarder commented, what do you have to say now?